Thursday, October 25, 2007

In response to Karthis

Edit: I originally mistook this as having been from Pike, and not Karthis...hence the absolute URL for this post. I've edited it to the degree that I can, and I do apologise, Pike.

Karthis wrote a response to my Rogue rant here, and so this post is going to be a reply to it.

Where to begin? Well, how about with a fabricated counter-example that I could easily see appearing on a blog some day:

I hate Hunters... I mean, does any other class collect the number of unskilled braindead people as hunters? It's as if Blizzard woke up one morning and said: "Let's make a class for people who failed basic math, and have all the manual dexterity of a cinder block." I don't like grouping with hunters because their unprofessionalism and outright stupidity infuses any group they become a part of, and I feel as if my IQ is dropping by the second.

Total rubbish of course, but I have grouped with a number of utter huntards in the past - mostly in PUG scenarios.

I'm honest enough to admit that this actually isn't total rubbish, Karthis. Maybe it is when talking about every single Hunter in existence, yes...but I will admit that when I've been playing my alts, I've had some Hunter problems as well recently...and I also know what the class's general reputation is. I attribute my own recent negative alt experiences primarily to three causes:-

1) The groups I was in were below level 40. A Hunter without Feign Death is a Hunter who, while still being able to draw massive amounts of aggro, is unable to drop said aggro. Hence, they draw crowds and cause wipes.

2) Player impatience. Most of the new characters I've grouped with recently were people who already had multiple 70s, and ironically, this actually seemed to cause them to make more mistakes than an entirely new player...mainly because, given the length of time it had been since playing the early instances, they would underestimate the level of difficulty present in the low level instances for characters of equal level, and assume they could simply race through it chain pulling everything in sight.

3) The inherent level of complexity involved in playing the class. I wouldn't know how many times I've heard it said on the Hunter forum; while the Hunter is an easy class to begin to play, it is actually fiendishly difficult to play well. There are just so many different variables to keep track of; your provisions, pet control, threat management, shot rotation, trapping, to melee or not to melee...none of these things are difficult individually; but put all of them together, and then throw the Hunter into a completely unfamiliar possibly begin to get the picture.

I was practicing daily in the Scarlet Monastery for probably six weeks a bit back in order to try and shed some of my own Huntard tendencies, and based on a rather messy duo BRD run that happened yesterday, it would seem I'm still in need of a lot more practice as far as pull order and crowd control is concerned. I've also caused some utterly monumental wipes in the Steamvault in particular due to backing into random adds. So yeah...there are a lot of Huntards out there, quite honestly...and I'm entirely willing to admit that most of the time, I'm one of them.

One of my best WoW-friends is a Rogue, and she is an absolute joy to group with - friendly, courteous, and even humble.

I need to meet some of these people. ;-)

I have met Paladins with god complexes

Ah, yes. I refer to this particular affliction as "Buzz Lightyear Syndrome." It's a coincidence that you mention it, actually...with my alt Warrior I did half a Blackfathom Deeps run with a textbook case just yesterday. We'd barely even get one pull finished before she'd charge madly on to the next, all the while continually telling us at length about the Paladin's total invincibility. Never mind caster mana or any semblance of order...just charge, charge, charge. Although we didn't wipe, a Warlock and I ended up hearthing out in disgust around halfway through...although in hindsight, it's actually pretty funny.

"To infinity...and beyond!" ;-)

drunkard Priests

I did an SM library run with a stoned tank once. Not a positive experience.

I think that Mirshalak needs to get over himself, and give Rogues another chance. Perhaps massive bad luck has landed him with a few bad apples in the past, but that is no excuse to blacklist the entire Rogue community.

I was actually thinking earlier today that I possibly do need to reverse my stance here. I can only conclude that my bad luck has indeed been massive, because the bad apples honestly have numbered more than a few...but you're right. My attitude has been bad.


Pike said...

Don't worry about the URL typo =) Good thing you caught it though, and edited it in, or I might have been confused =P

I am fortunate in that my dealings with the actual people who play various classes and such have been mostly positive so far; obviously you will get some rotten apples in any group through. It's unfortunate that most of your rotten apples seem to be rogues, but I think it's good that you're willing to try and change your view, and not base it on bad past experiences.

I am still not a big fan of rogues myself but as I said in my previous comment, it's because the class playstyle doesn't appeal to me, and because they are annoying in PvP, hehe =P I have met some rogues who are very good people though, because behind every WoW toon is a person.

Oh, and I, as a hunter, will be one of the first to tell you that there are more bad hunters than there are bad players of any other class... I seem to have grouped with enough of them anyway...

WyldKard said...

Naturally, while not everyone who plays a given character type has poor class when it comes to gaming with others, there are some WoW classes that seem to attract those with bad gaming etiquette. Among these, by and far, is the Rogue class.

Having played WoW since beta across numerous servers, I'm inclined to say that in order of most-to-least jackassiness, these three classes tend to get a deservedly bad reputation:

1) Rogues
2) Shamans
3) Hunters

Jelly said...

I need to meet some of these people. ;-)

Hi there.

- Jelena, Garona

Mirshalak said...

Hi Jelena! :)

Karthis said...

Thanks for the blog response, Mirsh - I'll update my post to direct people here as well.

Karthis said...

Oh! And do you have any comment WRT my rebuttal that rogue is just a "generic dps" class? I think that's the part that set me to writing an article-length response in the first place. =)

Mirshalak said...

I will admit that I didn't know that poisons had the degree of versatility that you mention. The one you mentioned having the same effect as Thunder Clap, more or less, is pretty cool. :)

Freejack said...

I don't think you have anything to apologize for. We make observations based on our own experiences. You claimed that over two years most of the rogues you've encountered behaved poorly so you decided to not group with them anymore. Great. I never heard you say that ALL rogues are the same way. And Karthis gave two examples contradict your observations, but that doesn't disprove your point that the majority of the class you have encountered acted distastefully. Swearing off the class as a whole might be a little extreme, but stick to your guns if you feel you're right.

Mirshalak said...

Thanks, Freejack. :)

Ashraf said...

You've got to wonder if server type matters-- having grown up on a pvp server at release, so to speak, you either leveled up standing on a trap, or you got ganked by a rogue who out leveled you to a considerable degree. Other classes you could work around, it seemed, rogues, on the other hand, meant you either decided to drop him/her right there and then, or go farm and quest in a completely different area. In my own faction, I partied with wonderous rogues, but they always seemed to be in a rush, race through instances, ect. Who knows?

Then I transfered to PvE, only a couple of short months ago. It's like a breath of fresh air. You go from being neurotic, laying traps and tracking people who might not be there, to not really caring that the guy over there is a horde rogue. It's a whole different mindset. I can't imagine that 3 years of that doesn't effect the rogue either.

Hell, my wife's been telling me for years that PvE'rs are nicer overall. They *seem* less angry and bitter. Even in instances people seem more relaxed, especially after a wipe. Maybe there's something to it.

Smid said...

As a late 40's priest, I have seen a yappy little rogue cause the tank to leave ZF (pick pocketing every mob before sap, eh?). Then I refused to heal him because he was deciding to solo a mob and then it was my fault he ran out of site. Lesson to new rogues. Shouting HEALZ ME will result in your death a second time you do it.

The little shit told me I was a liar when I told him that I was a 70 rogue and he was shit at playing the class.

However, as that 70's rogue, I am ashamed for me class at that annoying little git. I've met plenty of good rogues though, that one was the exception...

I came back as 70 rogue after that group split, and boosted the tank through ZF, quickly, saps, stuns and kicks. His comments: "Man, you're a professional", only sadness is that I couldn't keep the engineer up on the stairs to get to final bit... Non tanking melee can't really take that many...

Grant said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Grant said...

Thank you for retracting your previous stance. :) It takes cajones to admit one's mistakes and prejudices.

If you'll permit me to posit my own thoughts, I am a rogue (my one, and only, 70 - my next highest is a hunter). I am also a guild leader, a raid commander, and an inter- and intra-guild diplomat.

I love the rogue class - from a leader's perspective, it's a pure blessing. When I was a lowbie guild leader I used to do "commando runs" through the Deadmines or Gnomer, kill the bosses, and masterloot the items to my waiting guildmembers. Now that I'm 70, I use Stealth to mark up pulls, poison my weapons to make encounters easier, and utilize Distract to separate mobs (this ability has *no* equal in WOW).

Raid leadership is considerably easier as a rogue thanks to the consistent DPS rotation that rogues use and no mana conservation worries. It's easier to take a big-picture perspective and focus my attention and energy where the raid needs them (pun very intended).

All of the four rogues in my guild's raiding corps are intelligent, rational, and polite people. They also happen to pump out insane DPS (consistently highest in the raid) *and* they're some of my most consistent attenders. They don't whine about loot, nor are any of them sociopathic. Quite the opposite, in fact - most are great friends.

Now, granted, I play on an RP-PVE server (where I've found the quality of people significantly higher than otherwise). Perhaps this is my primary variance with your experience? :)

Someone said...

"Look, ma, a blind man!"
"Look, ma, another blind man!"
"This is surely a blind men city!"


I've met good people and bad people in all the classes, although I do partly agree that many rogues are "rotten apples", simply because, let's face it, even though I'm not saying ALL rogues are bad, the class play-style and features do make it the class of choice for "fiendish" (read: roguish) play... Sneak, stun-lock, if properly twinked down the clothie before the stun even finishes, vanish if needed or simply re-stealth, rinse and repeat...

Also, even though it takes a good player to be a good PvE rogue, it doesn't take much skill to, at least, survive a PvP encounter, let alone win it.

However, there are good and bad players in each and every class, but some classes/trees *do* favor this type of behavior and there's not much to be done about that!

Ginna said...

I need to meet some of these people. ;-)

Howdy! :D

- Ginna, Warsong

Mirshalak said...

Hi Ginna! :)
I am receiving a lot of positive rogue stories,'s great!

pelides said...

Every class has it's bad apples. Look at locks in raids. If ever there was an aggro magnet, the lock is it, but a good lock is worth his/her weight in khorium!

I've seen every single class played badly and have done my fair share of it as well.

You play and learn... everybody wins. You play and keep making the same stupid mistakes. You are destined to PUG purgatory forever.

Arga said...

I need to meet more of those people ;-)

I strive to be the most friendly and helpful rogue a party can have. If I make a mistake, I will always admit it was my fault, and apologize accordingly. =D

Argatroth, Frostwolf

Mirshalak said...

That sounds wonderful, Arga. :) I had a rogue in a group with my alt warrior earlier...he was very friendly, and was also very happy that I was able to keep mobs on me while tanking, because he was able to backstab constantly. It was good.

Stale said...


Im a Assassination Rogue and Holy priest and my rogue has Soloed ZF lol :)


Your rogue experience hasnt been good cause you havent been in an end game raiding guild... If my rogue pulls aggro off the tank, I'm going to die... then get yelled at because the raid just lost 750+ DPS

Healing is easy compared to DPS in that regard... you dont have to worry about aggro unless your tank is a nub. (Fortunately we have awesome tanks.)

And I have a hunter aswell.

His name is Huntard lol and he is lvl 13 atm... I should get back to lvling him.

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